Welcome to The Attachment Point. This is our SlackChat content where volunteers on The Insurance Nerds Slack Channel (join here) discuss various topics. We do very little editing (so excuse the typos) and we try to keep it as conversational as possible. Enjoy!

Today’s SlackChat was inspired by the following from Harvard Business Review – this article: Dual-Career Couples Are Forcing Firms to Rethink Talent Management and this podcast: “Women at Work”.

Carly Burnham: This article is over a year old, but it came to me through both Twitter and Facebook today, and it got me thinking, I’ve been seeing a lot lately about two career couples: companies are finding that more and more professionals are 2 career homes. This is challenging for them in managing “rising stars” who don’t want to relocate if it’s not the right timing for their partner’s careers. As companies look to adapt, domestic partnerships are changing too. How do you manage emotional labor in your homes and have you seen a change? Do you think the extra mental load affects women’s career paths?

Ryan Deeds: I may be in a minority situation, but our careers follow my wifes job more than mine. She is a dentist and the primary earner in our household and when we were going through dental school we kinda knew that would be the deal. I do think it is a constant work in progress and I have never felt like her career has held mine back as we are one family.

I know when she had to leave our family for 4 years to get through dental school there were all kinds of emotions and pressures we didnt expect. So many questions for her like “how can you leave your child” that made her have doubts about the decision. I dont feel like men in that situation had the same form of questions and it would always irritate me

Taryn Haas: Ryan Deeds Ha! Ryan we’re sort of in the same boat – we moved to move my career forward and my fiancé tends to pick up slack in household chores etc. as I was the one that traveled more often. That won’t be the case any more and I think it will help our relationship, though it wasn’t a major factor per se for the switch.

That’s crazy that people would say “how can you leave your child?” I think you’re right that men don’t get those questions. I actually had a higher-up at my last job asking me if I was OK travelling, if my fiancé was OK with me drinking at networking events without him, stuff like that. Which I assume is another question men don’t get, and it’s tied in with the travel factor. They want you to be independent and not tied down to anyone but them, at least that was the sense I got in a sales position.

Ryan Deeds: Raising 2 girls I see the difference in the treatment women get and it really does drive me crazy. An assertive woman is often considered abrasive where a male may be considered a go getter. I do think that is changing rapidly in some industries but in some it doesnt seem like it changes at all.

Tony Cañas: We’ve certainly had this issue since both my girlfriend and me are leading strong careers. She moved twice for my career, once to California and once to Atlanta. I moved twice for her once within California for a career opportunity and once to Ohio so she could be closer to family. But it’s tricky, I’ve had to decline opportunities because it wasn’t a good time for her to move to another area. This could mostly be solved if we simply got really good at letting people work remotely regardless of the job! But we’re a ways away from that.

Carly Burnham: I’m curious. . . As men who both have strong female partners, do you have explicit conversations about emotional and domestic labor? Have those conversations changed over time?

Ryan Deeds: For us domestic duty is who’s available. I feel like I need to set the bar for my girls so they don’t think that responsibility is there’s alone. There are certain tasks that my wife would rather do as she has specific ways to do it but most things are shared. My goal is always to minimize what she has to do household wise and at least 2 times a week have some kinda dinner made. 

She works later than me the days she works so I’m typically home first but for us our motto has been both give 100% and don’t keep track of who does what. We are about to hit our 17th year so it seems to be working well. 

We do have conversations about it but we’ve never had to sit down and say this is your responsibility this is mine. It’s all shared and my kids know if there is something to do that mom would do when she gets home then they better hop to or we will have a conversation about it. 

Taryn Haas: My partner and I have conversations about it and have the chores split generally evenly. I’m a little hypersensitive to the issue (which is a problem, working on it) just because I don’t want to get stuck doing all the chores along with managing my career. I have a concern about things being uneven just because that’s how society tends to be. I don’t think it’s the best way to handle the issue (kudos to Ryan Deeds , I need to work toward that) and talking about it too much can blow it up a bit, like you’re always keeping tally which isn’t fair.

Ryan Deeds: I think there is more pressure on a woman to maintain the “perfect” house for some reason my wife has a part of her self worth tied into how clean our house is. She gets embarrassed if its not up to her standards so we do the best we can to maintain that. When she was in dental school it was a little different as she would come home friday/saturday so my oldest and I would have a fast clean session on the days before she came home. Its interesting to me how different things effect each of us differently but in a partnership you have to understand the needs of the other party and life is constant compromise.

Tony Cañas: One thing I thought was weird is while my girlfriend and I were both job searching at the same time in the same city (we’re both in insurance) we dealt with some of the same recruiters who didn’t know we were a couple. I got sold on jobs with “lots of advancement opportunity” while the same recruiters tried to sell her on “it’s in a great school district”… It was incredible, I couldn’t believe this was happening in the 2010s! We have no kids BTW, so they were truly just assuming.

Taryn Haas: Haha, I can totally relate to that Ryan Deeds. If people are coming over and the place looks messy, I have to clean a whole bunch. I also find that I can’t be productive in a messy environment. I’m not sure if the latter has anything to do with your point, but it would be interesting to see various viewpoints on home cleanliness and the effects on emotion.

@Tony Wow that’s crazy.

Ryan Deeds: Yea my wife is order and I am chaos and we have had to figure out how to deal with that. Most days it works out….

Her stories about patients asking to see the dentist and not an assistant are pretty crazy. She still has to fight for the same level of respect that males are given defaulty and then deal with flirting etc that I haven’t had to deal with.

Carly Burnham: I’m specifically thinking recently about this comic. It’s kind of funny after reading it, you see it often. And that is what prompted my wondering about how much mental capacity this takes away from women at work. 

@Taryn, I can work in almost any setting. And often don’t “see mess”.  My husband does. But everyone except our closest friends expect that I’m the one who gets stressed by it.

Ryan Deeds: Carly Burnham i agree with this alot – i think for me raising two girls has changed my perspective a ton. It started when my 4 year old asked for a kitchen set for her birthday while my 4 year old nephew asked for a remote controlled car. i also think music and culture have a huge part to play as women are sexualized in advertising from the day our kids start understanding ads and by the time they are older it is so ingrained that is is hard to understand how pervasive the impact is.

Taryn Haas: Carly Burnham that’s a really helpful comic. And it gives a lot of context to scenes I’ve encountered but been frustrated by without being able to explain well. I tend to manage a lot a with our household things – laundry, when my the cars needs an oil change, vet appointments and meds, etc. I can’t imagine what it would be like with kids.

Carly Burnham: Every time I hear from men who are thinking about these things because of their daughters, I am encouraged. And I hope that it extends for people to the rest of their worldview. 

Ryan Deeds: Taryn Haas why do you schedule oil changes? My wife did the same thing and finally i was like no… when i need it i will get it or i will deal with the repercussions. I dont want my wife to be my mom or for me to be like a dependent. I am much more irresponsible than she is and will let things go longer than she would but i will get it done when I feel its needed. Its just a difference of when we each feel it is needed. Women are more proactive i think while men will let things slide a bit more. My wife felt like if she didn’t do it i wouldn’t do it but thats not true I just might not do it when she would want me to.

Taryn Haas: The idea of him texting me “my car won’t start and there’s no oil” is much greater than me just making a phone call once every few months and putting a note in my planner. 

Carly Burnham: I think there are certain times when it is easier to say that he will have to deal with the consequences. For instance, if money was less tight, it’s easier to say, if he doesn’t have the oil changes done on time, and his car has an issue bc of it, it’s on him. But when you’re starting out, that’s more difficult. One of the things we’ve been trying to figure out is that I am better at logistical things (probably bc of practice), so if I do those things, what can he do that’s of equal contribution to the household? 

Taryn Haas: Yea. Actually, do any of you have any tips for discussing this sort of thing? I think that would be helpful on multiple levels – a lot of couples our age aren’t having kids and I imagine some of it has to do with this exact issue: that women are going to pick up the slack. So how do we further those discussions and make them easier to have in terms of two-career households?

Given that the mental stress of things is hard to express. At least that’s what I’ve found in my experience.

I wonder if that could be a good resource for employers actually – like a seminar on what this situation looks like and how to talk about it, you could bring your significant other, etc.

Ryan Deeds: I think those conversations are best to be had in safe spaces when everyone is calm and having a good time. I suspect that women feel more pressure to get stuff done which takes away from there ability to relax. being able to articulate that in a fasihon would give the partner an opportunity to say hey ill handle that or how can we share that burden. But i am sure I would be a much different person if I wasnt trying to prepare two ladies to join the world relatively soon.

Taryn Haas: Yea, that’s true.

Ryan Deeds: i do think our culture puts men in an idea of ownership of women… some think that value of a man can be directly correlated to how attractive a partner they have and that in turn gives percieved power to women that may make men subtly hostile . When you listen to the music our kids are listening to and the shows our kids watch its self perpetuating. And now with social media I think that pressure for girls to be beautiful, and get good grades, and have the perfect life the ante is upped and dissatisfaction with who they are starts ever younger. I think that women face a hostility that men dont have to ever deal with or even acknowledge because it can be so passive and so pervasive.

These are the discussions we have in my family. Alot.

Taryn Haas: Ryan Deeds Do you think that has an effect on how women treat their careers? Like they’re more likely to put those things ahead of being successful, or if they don’t they’re resented?

Ryan Deeds: Yes – i know my wife had many nights of doubts when she was away because of folks perception that she wasnt being a good mom because she was away. i on the other hand thought the exact opposite and felt her sacrifice with her child was the epitome of family before self. Im sure  that many of my female peers here feel terrible when they cant go on X school trip or do Y thing with their kid because of work and while the men probably feel bad about it on occasion i dont think it haunts us like it does most moms. They have the shadow of their mother to live up to.

Taryn Haas: Carly Burnham as someone that’s done a lot of long-distance due to differing careers, do you think that’s worked for you? Is that going to become the new norm?

Tony Cañas: Their mothers many of whom were stay at home

Carly Burnham: Taryn Haas That is an interesting question. When I felt like it was time to start looking for my next role, about a year and a half ago, there was no possibility for my husband to move as he had to stay where we were to finish his residency. I talked to a senior mentor of mine, who happens to be a male, he has also had multiple roles where he and his partner have had to live apart, and he strongly discouraged choosing the long distance opportunity-even with an end date, he advised that it would be very difficult-a key difference (I think) is that they went through those experiences with children. But I’d hate to speak for others; I don’t know if it would work for everyone. For me, it has had its challenges, and I am glad that in less than a month, we’ll be living together again. But, reading that comic about household management as I’m getting ready to live with my partner again really made me think about how we will need to be conscious of how we design our lives. I am lucky that he is open to these conversations and searches out information on women’s experiences. But it’s easy to fall in to the roles expected of you. And I know he hears about me being apart from him for my career from some more conservative people in our lives, as do I. Not to mention the fact that, I expect to be mobile if I want to advance, whereas his career path makes that less necessary. So in summary, long distance is ok for me. I know it’s not ideal, and I don’t think it’s ever going to be popular. As we become more comfortable financially, we are also privileged to be able to be more comfortable with it. 

Rob Galbraith: Sorry for jumping in late. I’ve learned a lot of hard lessons along the way even as an “enlightened” male partner. The comic sums it up really well! There is a scene in the movie “The Break-Up” with Jennifer Aniston and Vince Vaughn that my wife and I love to quote. Jennifer’s character wants Vince’s character to help out more around the house and he begrudgingly agrees. She is frustrated with his attitude and says “I want you to WANT to do the dishes!” He replies “Why would I ever WANT to do the dishes?” It really encapsulates the burden of expectations that fall on women as the primary “manager” of household tasks and men as the “support”.

I used to have the exactly same attitude of “I’ll do whatever you ask” but have evolved (slowly) towards attempting to anticipate what is needed, what is stressing her out and blending the tasks that need to be done with which will have the most impact/stress relief and proactively doing them. I am far from perfect and it has taken decades (and 2 marriages) to get to this point. The burden is far from even as I travel frequently. We are at equivalent levels yet Dani has to consistently log in at night to finish up work whereas I am much less likely to do so.

I fully support her when she travels but she is much less inclined to do so. Part is personality but part I believe is because she feels an extra burden of being gone from our kids, especially our youngest who is 8.

Honestly, I think we both would be secretly happy if the other became wildly successful at work and we could quit to focus on family. We love the 2-person income and piece of mind of having both of us with good jobs, but believe in some ways it holds us back from advancing farther to both be balancing work and family while other single-income households appear to be more likely to attain high positions in the company.

It is super hard!!! No shortcuts for sure.

You’re both spread so thin, you feel like you’re inadequate at everything. Work, home, partner, parent.

Chase Russell: My wife is almost physically pained by clutter. And even if I do dishes and clean the kitchen after I cook, she’ll redo both of those things for her own peace of mind. 

We’re fortunate in one way that my wife has a career that’s needed regardless of location (ER Nurse). But there have still been costs. We’ve had to be mobile for me to advance my career the last 5 years. The result of this is we’re living in an area where her earnings have dropped by 50% from where they were 5 years ago. Turns out location is the #1 driver of nurse pay regardless of experience, company, education, etc. That is because there tend to be local monopolies or duopolies on healthcare jobs if you’re not in large metro areas, but that’s a story for another day. The good news is, this has gotten my career to the point that I can be more forceful about where I’m willing to be located, and we’re starting to focus that towards a metro area where her earnings are increased, and we both enjoy living. We try to manage our schedules weekly and monthly. I known on the 3-4 days a week she works, I’m a single parent, and have to make sure our son taken to school, picked up, and to Scouts, karate, cook meals, etc. Then on her 3-4 days off she’s able to focus on resting first. After that, she can work on laundry or grocery shopping while he’s at school and I’m at work. We’re still working on some things, neither of us really gets much “me” time in all the schedule juggling. But we’re working towards it. 

Ryan Deeds: @Rob Galbraith I think your last point is so right. The feeling of constant inadequacy. It always feels like I’m failing at something and my wife feels the same way. With being between parents and children, hustling like we have to for the careers there is always some role that I feel like I am not doing a good enough job. It really impacts some days. 

Tony Cañas: We are a bit of a different story because we don’t have kids (which makes it easier) and I’m pathologically messy (which makes it harder). Luckily my girlfriend has incredible patience when it comes to my mess and has figured out some ways to live with it. My favorite is the “Tony Box”. Anything messy is simply thrown in the Tony box and I’m allowed to keep my desk messy in exchange for helping out on keeping the rest of the apartment livable. Luckily, with no kids it’s not so hard. I give her absolute recognition for putting up with my mess, many couldn’t stand it in the past.

Rob Galbraith: I always say that “messy” is the dominant gene over “clean”. 

Ryan Deeds: Messy is easy clean is work